Shahnameh, Tale of Zahhak, Part 2

Leyla Shams (00:06.666)
Learn Persian with Chai and Conversation, Firdousi's Shahnawme, Tale of Zahak, The Serpent King with Dr. Safa Shahiani, Part 2. Salam be hamegi, hello and welcome. We had a little bit of a longer introduction this time. We're just going to make it longer and longer each time. But welcome to Safa-chan. Thank you for joining us again.

Sahba Shayani (00:18.432)
You

Sahba Shayani (00:32.404)
Thank you for having me, Leila John. It's great to be here.

Leyla Shams (00:35.761)
Yeah, so this is part two of our tale of Zahok, the serpent king, which is one of the most famous tales of the Shahnawmeh, one of its most important, one of its most visually telling stories. And last time we provided a bit of an introduction into what was going on with Jamshid, who was a great Iranian king until he wasn't. And then we moved over to the Arabian king of

the area and Zahhak. So I'll let you take it over.

Sahba Shayani (01:06.688)
you

No, that was perfect, yes. So we moved into the Arabian lands and talked about the Arabian king Mardas and how he was killed by his son essentially with imaginations of the devil and his son Zahak, Mardas's son. And now we have arrived to Zahak's story essentially. So Ferdowsi tells us,

So, sabokh mayeh zahak. The zahak who was very lightweight in his essence, meaning that his essence wasn't good. So sabokh mayeh zahak bidadgard. So this ill-essenced, unjust zahak.

Leyla Shams (01:56.745)
Mmm.

Sahba Shayani (02:07.966)
Be din char e, through this solution, through this recourse, this manner, beg rift gah e pedar, he took the place of his father. Besar bar nahad, afsar e tazian, upon his head he placed the afsar, the Taj, of tazian, the crown of the Arabs. Bar ishan bebakhshid, sudo zian, and he bestowed upon them both good and bad. Essentially. Yeah.

Leyla Shams (02:34.883)
interesting.

Sahba Shayani (02:37.898)
So this is, so this, just to link it to what we had done in the previous session, this is how Zahhak sits upon the throne, kills his father and becomes king. Now, not long passes after this, that one day the devil reappears again to Zahhak. This time in the guise of a handsome, good-essenced, good-natured chef. So I'm going to read to you.

what he said, what Ferdowsi says. So he created out of himself a young man. And wise. And pure bodied. So this is also really important to me in the story. It's really interesting. Is the manifestations that Iblis takes.

They're all very good manifestations. And I think here, Ferdowsi is trying to teach us something too. It's again, not all that shines is gold. It's that concept, essentially, you know? So just because someone is like presenting to you as like, you know, all this good stuff doesn't mean it necessarily is. So always be careful. I think this is also a very Iranian concept. You always have your guard up a little bit for... Who can resist a handsome chef?

Leyla Shams (03:45.275)
Ooh.

Leyla Shams (04:00.069)
Yeah, but a handsome chef who can resist.

Sahba Shayani (04:14.816)
So, in such a manner, he set out towards Zahak, he faced Zahak, and he said nothing to him except for praise. Yeah, so again, flattery, right? He said to the king, if I may be.

Leyla Shams (04:25.061)
E

Sahba Shayani (04:36.832)
If I may be at the... how do you say this in English? If I may be...

Sahba Shayani (04:50.066)
If I may be in the... If I may be good enough for the king, essentially is what he's saying, if I may be good enough for the king, I am a pure, renowned chef.

Leyla Shams (05:01.948)
Mmm.

Sahba Shayani (05:03.552)
So Zahak heard this, caressed him, he tended to him, and he made him in charge of his cooking, So they give him the key to the royal kitchen, essentially.

Sahba Shayani (05:48.544)
So this is very interesting. Ferdowsi tells us at that time it wasn't very common to eat

cattle and poultry and things that were raised by humanity. So essentially what he's saying is that people were predominantly vegetarian. And this actually plays in very well into the Indo-Aryan concepts that we see present in Hinduism too. You know, it's important to remember that Iranians and Indians share this original root, right, of the Indo-Aryans. So

Leyla Shams (06:12.283)
Wow.

Leyla Shams (06:27.654)
Yeah.

Sahba Shayani (06:30.858)
these concepts were all common among them. And then of course they separate and they form their own identities, but there are essentially original concepts. So Iranians too originally were vegetarian from what we can see. So.

Leyla Shams (06:43.666)
Wow. That's so interesting, because I was just thinking like what kind of food was he making for him.

Sahba Shayani (06:50.528)
Yeah, so originally he was eating mostly plants and such. But Iblis comes and introduces to him, he says, So from every kind of meat, yeah? From chicken and that of the four-legged ones, so any cattle essentially. The chef,

Leyla Shams (06:56.454)
Wow.

Sahba Shayani (07:19.84)
One by one he brought towards him a meal. And is in this way that he entices Zahak towards himself even more, right? That he wins him.

Leyla Shams (07:24.552)
Wow.

Leyla Shams (07:31.976)
Wow.

Sahba Shayani (07:35.264)
Zahak is infatuated with the food that he creates, that he cooks for him. And then, Ferdowsi says this one beautiful line I want to read to you. He says, Whatever the chef would say, or you could read it as whatever.

Zahak would say, the chef would do, or you could read it as whatever the chef would say Zahak would do, yeah? Befarmane ou del gerogan konad. Through his command, through the chef's command, he, Zahak's heart became a gerogan, became, huh? Hostage, exactly, became a hostage, yeah, yeah. So through his,

Leyla Shams (08:08.199)
Mm-hmm.

Leyla Shams (08:20.039)
Hostage. Hostage.

Leyla Shams (08:26.096)
Wow.

Sahba Shayani (08:28.532)
beautiful cooking and his words, he turns Zahak's heart into his own slave.

Leyla Shams (08:33.863)
Wow, and what an intimate way to get to someone, especially through nourishing them and then getting them to go from plants to meat. Wow.

Sahba Shayani (08:38.1)
Yes.

nourishing them. Exactly.

Yeah, exactly.

Leyla Shams (08:49.607)
That's interesting.

Sahba Shayani (08:52.288)
So he continues this act and one day he, the devil, and one day he comes to Zahok and Zahok says, and he says to Zahok that I have one request of you and Zahok says anything you want I grant you. And this is what Iblis replies with. He says all I want is to kiss.

each of your shoulders in gratitude. And Ferdowsi tells us, befarmu tā dīv chonjufde'uī, hamī būse dād azbare sufde'uī. So befarmu tā dīv chonjufde'uī, he commanded that the demon, meaning the devil, chonjufde'uī, as though he was his pair, meaning that he stands on the same ground as him, hamī būse dād azbare sufde'uī. So he gave kisses,

on his shoulders. So he kissed his shoulders and immediately he vanished into thin air. None had seen such wonder in the world as this.

Leyla Shams (09:53.201)
Yeah.

Leyla Shams (10:01.766)
Oof.

Sahba Shayani (10:19.616)
suddenly two black snakes grow out of his shoulders, one on each shoulder, and he became pained from them and turned to every corner of the world for a solution.

Sahba Shayani (10:54.084)
So he commanded finally that they cut the snakes from his shoulders, but Ferdowsi says it's not strange if you aren't on shock of this because just as the branches of a tree

The snakes re-grew out of his shoulders again.

Leyla Shams (11:10.075)
Oof.

Sahba Shayani (11:12.288)
Crazy, huh? I loved this scene. Yeah.

Leyla Shams (11:13.431)
Yes. Yeah.

Sahba Shayani (11:25.707)
So they bring doctors from every land to come and give a solution and each of them suggests something. I love this. This story is just fascinating. So they tried everything they could, but they couldn't find a solution to this ailment.

Leyla Shams (11:34.799)
Yeah.

Sahba Shayani (11:49.928)
What happens now? Now, you know, we say in Persian, it's not at the end until it's the third round. So, Iblis then appears again as a physician this time before Zahak and comes to him in swiftness and immediately.

Leyla Shams (12:05.221)
Wow.

Sahba Shayani (12:40.896)
So here he seals his deal, yeah? He says, it seems...

Leyla Shams (12:44.955)
Yeah.

Sahba Shayani (12:47.988)
that this is an insolvable disease and the only thing that you can do to resolve it is to feed them so that they don't turn towards you instead. Don't give them anything. Save the brain of human beings so that perhaps this way through this way they'll die on their

Sareh nar-redeevan az in jostujooj, che jostuj, che deedan darin goftogooj. Magar ta yeki char-e sazad nehan, ke pardahd maanad ze mardom jehan. So, and this is, this links back to Zoroastrian mythology and theology. Ferdowsi says, what did this great demon seek from this response other than to empty the world from humanity?

And this goes back to the ancient Zoroastrian myth of Ahreeman, the evil forces attempt to erase humanity off the face of the earth through death and disease and destruction. So it links in that way to this. But in this story, Zahak becomes the devil's instrument to try to do that.

Leyla Shams (14:00.688)
Mmm.

Leyla Shams (14:04.711)
Mmm.

Leyla Shams (14:10.618)
Wow, through the eating of brains. Ooh, the story takes a horrid turn, horrifying turn.

Sahba Shayani (14:14.016)
Through the eating of brains, yeah.

It does, it does. But it's also so symbolic, I think, and powerful and strong in that what goes on to happen is that, I mean, we'll talk about this in a bit, but they eat, they feed them the brain of an Iranian youth eventually every day. And so this is very symbolic, I think, you know, to think about. We'll get to it, Hala, but just a...

Leyla Shams (14:42.848)
Interesting. Okay, with that cliffhanger, I guess, is that the concluding portion of today?

Sahba Shayani (14:50.656)
We can't, or you want to go on five more minutes maybe? think we have time. Okay. what happens from here on is that we move back to Iran. And in Iran, things are in turmoil as we know, because Jamshid has lost his divine glory. So, Ferdowsi tells us,

Leyla Shams (14:53.636)
Yeah, yeah, sure, sure. Yeah, let's keep going. Yeah.

Leyla Shams (15:10.051)
okay. Right.

Leyla Shams (15:15.428)
Right. Yes.

Sahba Shayani (15:18.568)
Azan pas bar ahmad az Iran khurush Padid ahmad az har suyi jangujush Siah gashed rakhshande ruz-e sapid Gossastand peyvand ba jamshid So, in Iran, tumult is arising and there's lots of khurush, lots of screaming and yelling and it's full of jangujush, full of war and the turning of turmoil.

siahgash rakhshande rouzehsepeed, the bright day turned dark, gousastand peivand ba jamshid. So, and the nobility and the grandees cut their ties with jamshid. Yeah?

Leyla Shams (15:59.526)
Ugh.

Sahba Shayani (16:08.872)
So the divine glory turned dark towards him and he turned towards crookedness and ill thought.

Sahba Shayani (16:21.662)
yaki naam jooi be har pahlavi So from every corner arises a new surfer. Someone who says I should be king. No, I should be king. No, I should take the crown. And thus the Iranians start looking for who can take over, who can become our king. And sovaran-e-iran hame shah jooi nahadan yeksar be zahak rooi. The

Leyla Shams (16:33.094)
Mmm.

Sahba Shayani (16:49.78)
Guards of Iran looking everywhere for a king turned their face suddenly towards Zahag. Be shahi baru aferin khandand, vora shah-e Iran-zamin khandand. They turned to him as their king and they praised him as their king and they made him the monarch of Iran-zamin.

Leyla Shams (16:57.018)
Mmm.

Leyla Shams (17:12.438)
dear.

Sahba Shayani (17:15.87)
Maran-e-jdehafash bi-aamad-chobad, be-e-ran-zamin-taaj, bar-sarnahad. So that dragon-natured one came to Iran, and in the land of Iran, he set the crown upon his throne. And then he turns towards Jamshid, and he chases Jamshid.

out of Iran eventually and Jamshid escapes and he goes all the way to the east and years and years and years pass, a hundred years pass, that Jamshid isn't hiding and no one knows where he is until eventually Zahak's men find Jamshid and at that instant Zahak orders that they saw Jamshid into half.

Leyla Shams (18:06.511)
Woo.

Sahba Shayani (18:07.41)
I'm into half and jam sheet is thus destroyed. And again, this is also, I think, symbolic in that a king that loses his glory turns into nothing. Absolute insight.

Leyla Shams (18:17.135)
Wow.

Sahba Shayani (18:20.68)
and he tersesas Jamshid into half and he begins his reign of a thousand years over the land of Iran.

Leyla Shams (18:31.746)
Is that the depressing note that we'll end it on?

Sahba Shayani (18:33.824)
That's the best thing we're gonna end on yet. But also it's weird because you don't know what's gonna happen next.

Leyla Shams (18:40.864)
Gosh, yeah, wow. Well, one thing that brought up for me, we talked about the ending of Jamshid and you know, it's based on, we can judge his whole reign based on that ending, but he is seen still as a great king in Iranian lore. So how is that? How do you think about that?

Sahba Shayani (18:57.384)
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.

Sahba Shayani (19:02.994)
I mean, think that actually is also a very realistic approach to the kingship and to a mythical story. It's a very realistic approach to a mythical story, where someone, just because they end up failing at the end for whatever reason, and in a way actually for him, for very personal reasons, right? Because letting your hubris take over you and forgetting

Leyla Shams (19:26.277)
Right.

Yeah.

Sahba Shayani (19:30.112)
your place in the thing is a very personal thing, you know? But that doesn't destroy all the good that you've accomplished, you know? The good is still there, you're remembered for that too, but you're also remembered that ultimately, you know? And he gets, he is, he reaps what he sows eventually, right? Like because he lets his hubris get the better of him, he falls from his glory and is eventually sawn into half.

Leyla Shams (19:36.89)
Mmm.

Leyla Shams (19:49.008)
Right.

Leyla Shams (19:55.072)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, which is

Sahba Shayani (19:56.16)
But that doesn't destroy all the good that he did. Sorry you were saying.

Leyla Shams (20:00.25)
Well, it's too bad because it sounds like he knew how to govern. He was very competent. He did great things. And it's too bad that he could have been the foil to not allowing. But because he gave way to hubris, it allowed Zahok to take over everything.

Sahba Shayani (20:07.263)
Yeah.

Sahba Shayani (20:13.632)
exactly.

Sahba Shayani (20:17.886)
No. Exactly. You actually, I think you nailed a very important point there, and that's that our, sometimes our shortcomings, even though they be personal, affect everyone, not just us.

Yeah, and I think that's something to be gleaned from this, is that especially when you're in a position of power, know, if you're just some random person maybe, then even but even then if you have a family, it affects your family. Our decisions aren't just our own. And especially the more power you have, the more of an effect that it does have. And I think that's also see how many lessons there are hidden in a mythical story in the beauty of the Shahnawmi.

Leyla Shams (20:35.951)
Yeah.

Leyla Shams (21:00.151)
A lot, yeah.

Yeah. And also I find the kissing the shoulders very interesting. mean, with our like modern sensibilities, it is hard to wrap your head around. So this person has like gotten so close. And then in the end, he just asked for this two things. He says, I want to kiss your shoulders. That's an interesting thing to me. Like, what is their relationship to where that was? So he has to get like close enough to like physically kiss him. And he has to.

Sahba Shayani (21:28.01)
Exactly. Yeah. I think that's also a point in it, a part of it, is that like I was reading, it says he becomes joft with the king eventually, right? So they stand exactly across from each other. And that in itself is very telling because someone has to get really close to the king to be able, like emotionally, I mean, to be able to then get, stand at the same level as them at a time where like, if this was the king, this was where everyone else should have stood.

Leyla Shams (21:37.368)
Yes.

Leyla Shams (21:56.024)
Yeah, that's true.

Sahba Shayani (21:57.982)
So it's also a lesson of be careful who you get too close to you because it's like that meme where they put like a rotten orange next to a fresh orange and they say, be careful who you associate with because they can affect you. It's like that essentially.

Leyla Shams (22:12.817)
Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Very interesting. Okay. Well, any other thoughts that we want to leave the listener with before we go to the next part of the story? This is a very dark turn that we've taken in this story.

Sahba Shayani (22:25.224)
I think it's a dark turn, think about the lessons that we just talked about. All of these are things that you can really take away from the story that are applicable to every one of our lives, actually. So just think about the lessons that it is teaching us.

Leyla Shams (22:40.515)
Yeah. And I also always think about this, like, when I was working in an office, and, know, I worked in an architecture office and we had this period of time when things were very good. Like everybody was getting along. The leadership was very good. They were very fair and very just. And I had, I remember thinking at the time, I was like, this could turn, you know, with the change of one person, like all it takes is one, like you said, like rotten thing to happen for this all to change. And it did things change.

the architecture firm ended up like kind of failing in the end and all this stuff happened. I'm sure it's the same in an academic environment where it could just be feeling so perfect and it just takes one turn and poof, is like, everything just goes away and the tides turn so quickly. I think that that's very interesting just hearing how Jamshed, it changed.

Sahba Shayani (23:17.568)
Absolutely.

Sahba Shayani (23:31.615)
I think it's.

I think it's true in every setting, like you're saying. Yeah.

Leyla Shams (23:40.587)
interesting. Okay, well, things to think about and we'll be back next week with the next part of this story, the tale of Zahok, the Serpent King. Thank you very much, Zappa, and until next time.

Sahba Shayani (23:51.872)
Until next time, God bless.